This is a lovely picture, Simon. I would have thought it would have attracted more recognition :~)
It is a beautiful well crafted image and would do well in a Salon or external competition. Hopefully that statement is not the 'voice of doom" There were other images in that division,that probably, in front of another judge would have scored differently. The method of scoring we are using this season means the "placed" images are purely their favourites, something that moves them, or that they wished they had taken, or "God knows why". This system does not really place a photographer in a list showing his capabilities against those of another and is always subjective. As you say Simon, you just enjoy the thought process, the taking, the presentation. We are all confident with our own images, all of them a 20 in our eyes, but others always think differently.
Many thanks...but never mind i got enormous satisfaction from getting it all set up and taken as it was out of the 'back of my car' - clothes/lighting etc - in France.
Well good for you matey... Thank you for showing the picture :~)
I think you have hit it on the head, Simon. Its taken along time, but I am getting to the point where if I enjoy the photography process nothing else matters. Unfortunately the only part I don't like is showing in front of judges now. We tried so hard to stay all night last night, but failed again :~(
Could we continue this discussion on here? I was planning to devise a survey to gather views. I would be interested to hear what we could fill our evenings with if we have less scored comps. Why do people enter comps? Are they only interested in the scores ? Why is a 20 so important? Can we, and do we, learn anything from the comments of the judges? How as a club can we improve the quality of the judges we invite? Does a perfect judge exist? As the sounding board for the majority of the comments i hear about judging, I get totally defeated by it and fail to know how to improve things and to suggest how we plan the competitive content next season. To see, from the front of the hall, a stream of people leaving at half time is demoralizing, having to explain this to invited guests to our club is embarrassing. What do you want from our club? Do we need radical change, why are we having competitions when everyone seems to hate the end result? Your suggestions please.
Simon - An excellant, well executed pictorial image, full of atmosphere and telling a story.
May I add a few observartions to Melanies discussion above.
It is estimated that some 3,000 photographers are members of the 52 clubs that make up the Kent County Photographic Association. Of that number approximatly a mere 1% offer their services to assess our images/prints, pass comment, offer advice and place the work in an order that he/she condiders appropiate. This is a service that has been available from the very earliest days of club photography. It is only natural that each will have their own opinion - it would be a pointless excerise otherwise and we would gain nothing.
Those members who were still present at the end of last Mondays meeting heard the judge stress that his assessment and placing was entirely his own opinion. There is no reason to believe it was not given in good faith.
It must be emphised that we, as a club, invite these fellow photographers to assess our work. In retworthurn surely we must accept their opinion in the spirit in which it is offered. Accept that we have not successfully told the story that we have presented to the viewer.
Arthur
I agree with Arthur!
First, thank you all for your comments re my picture.
While I almost always go out to shoot with a theme /concept /location in mind I accept that this is not everybody’s way of working a picture. I then spend a long time, in my digital darkroom on the computer, looking, moulding, layering, blending, cropping this way and that and doing a lot of experimentation with a shot which I also (equally) enjoy.
Having created a picture I then put it into competition. My first competition objective is to see if the judge gives the picture some sort of critical comment. To me a judge who says “this is totally balmy beyond my comprehension” gives me an enormous thrill - more so than getting a mark!
However, that said, I love it when one of my pictures gets a mark. I’m competitive and enjoy being depressed each Monday night when I view the amazing nature and flower pictures that people produce. Sometimes it all goes wrong and I end up with no marks!
But to walk out for any reason, other than for a call to nature, is not only rude but is against the spirit of ’some you win and some you loose’. That’s life. However, the Facebook/Twitter attitude to life is that my word is God and you’re an idiot. These people tend to give up on both trying to understand or listen to any arguments.
(MC please do not get any sleepless nights over this)
What I think still needs to be corrected is:
- the time the PDI images are shown for – far too short to understand some of the nuances in the images presented
- judges being encouraged to discuss not only why they think something should be adjusted/removed /added etc. but then tell us how they might go about it in the camera/on the computer!
- present the images in genre groups, within each league presentation, so the poor judge has, at the very least, an opportunity to judge all the landscape images together and then the portraits etc. I suggest this as I think some judges hold back because they can’t remember if another ‘good’ landscape is about to appear at the end of the group and they don’t want to burn all their ‘comment bridges’ too quickly.
- we should also try a meeting whereby people are given X seconds to talk about their image and then the Judge(s) might offer comment or indeed, question the photographer.
I think Arthur will still tell us that competition nights are the best attended. So let’s not give up because a few people don’t agree with a judge.
(MC should you repeat just your comment in a Bulletin as this thread is just a single conversation and will not reach members via an email alert?)
As usual Simon, so many of your points are right on the button, I especially like the idea of grouping similar images together to help the judge, and that judges views should be backed up with positive actions that could resolve problems, and this would also stop off the cuff comments being thrown out that could not be clarified with a solution offered. Myself, the competition is less important than the chance to air my images and get feedback that can help me to improve, so for me the ones that get constructive criticism are the ones I learn most from, so from that point of view I can't understand why so many people leave early having made the effort to attend in the first place.
Comments
This is a lovely picture, Simon. I would have thought it would have attracted more recognition :~)
It is a beautiful well crafted image and would do well in a Salon or external competition. Hopefully that statement is not the 'voice of doom" There were other images in that division,that probably, in front of another judge would have scored differently. The method of scoring we are using this season means the "placed" images are purely their favourites, something that moves them, or that they wished they had taken, or "God knows why". This system does not really place a photographer in a list showing his capabilities against those of another and is always subjective. As you say Simon, you just enjoy the thought process, the taking, the presentation. We are all confident with our own images, all of them a 20 in our eyes, but others always think differently.
Many thanks...but never mind i got enormous satisfaction from getting it all set up and taken as it was out of the 'back of my car' - clothes/lighting etc - in France.
Well good for you matey... Thank you for showing the picture :~)
I think you have hit it on the head, Simon. Its taken along time, but I am getting to the point where if I enjoy the photography process nothing else matters. Unfortunately the only part I don't like is showing in front of judges now. We tried so hard to stay all night last night, but failed again :~(
Could we continue this discussion on here? I was planning to devise a survey to gather views. I would be interested to hear what we could fill our evenings with if we have less scored comps. Why do people enter comps? Are they only interested in the scores ? Why is a 20 so important? Can we, and do we, learn anything from the comments of the judges? How as a club can we improve the quality of the judges we invite? Does a perfect judge exist? As the sounding board for the majority of the comments i hear about judging, I get totally defeated by it and fail to know how to improve things and to suggest how we plan the competitive content next season. To see, from the front of the hall, a stream of people leaving at half time is demoralizing, having to explain this to invited guests to our club is embarrassing. What do you want from our club? Do we need radical change, why are we having competitions when everyone seems to hate the end result? Your suggestions please.
Simon - An excellant, well executed pictorial image, full of atmosphere and telling a story.
May I add a few observartions to Melanies discussion above.
It is estimated that some 3,000 photographers are members of the 52 clubs that make up the Kent County Photographic Association. Of that number approximatly a mere 1% offer their services to assess our images/prints, pass comment, offer advice and place the work in an order that he/she condiders appropiate. This is a service that has been available from the very earliest days of club photography. It is only natural that each will have their own opinion - it would be a pointless excerise otherwise and we would gain nothing.
Those members who were still present at the end of last Mondays meeting heard the judge stress that his assessment and placing was entirely his own opinion. There is no reason to believe it was not given in good faith.
It must be emphised that we, as a club, invite these fellow photographers to assess our work. In retworthurn surely we must accept their opinion in the spirit in which it is offered. Accept that we have not successfully told the story that we have presented to the viewer.
Arthur
I agree with Arthur!
First, thank you all for your comments re my picture.
While I almost always go out to shoot with a theme /concept /location in mind I accept that this is not everybody’s way of working a picture. I then spend a long time, in my digital darkroom on the computer, looking, moulding, layering, blending, cropping this way and that and doing a lot of experimentation with a shot which I also (equally) enjoy.
Having created a picture I then put it into competition. My first competition objective is to see if the judge gives the picture some sort of critical comment. To me a judge who says “this is totally balmy beyond my comprehension” gives me an enormous thrill - more so than getting a mark!
However, that said, I love it when one of my pictures gets a mark. I’m competitive and enjoy being depressed each Monday night when I view the amazing nature and flower pictures that people produce. Sometimes it all goes wrong and I end up with no marks!
But to walk out for any reason, other than for a call to nature, is not only rude but is against the spirit of ’some you win and some you loose’. That’s life. However, the Facebook/Twitter attitude to life is that my word is God and you’re an idiot. These people tend to give up on both trying to understand or listen to any arguments.
(MC please do not get any sleepless nights over this)
What I think still needs to be corrected is:
- the time the PDI images are shown for – far too short to understand some of the nuances in the images presented
- judges being encouraged to discuss not only why they think something should be adjusted/removed /added etc. but then tell us how they might go about it in the camera/on the computer!
- present the images in genre groups, within each league presentation, so the poor judge has, at the very least, an opportunity to judge all the landscape images together and then the portraits etc. I suggest this as I think some judges hold back because they can’t remember if another ‘good’ landscape is about to appear at the end of the group and they don’t want to burn all their ‘comment bridges’ too quickly.
- we should also try a meeting whereby people are given X seconds to talk about their image and then the Judge(s) might offer comment or indeed, question the photographer.
I think Arthur will still tell us that competition nights are the best attended. So let’s not give up because a few people don’t agree with a judge.
(MC should you repeat just your comment in a Bulletin as this thread is just a single conversation and will not reach members via an email alert?)
As usual Simon, so many of your points are right on the button, I especially like the idea of grouping similar images together to help the judge, and that judges views should be backed up with positive actions that could resolve problems, and this would also stop off the cuff comments being thrown out that could not be clarified with a solution offered. Myself, the competition is less important than the chance to air my images and get feedback that can help me to improve, so for me the ones that get constructive criticism are the ones I learn most from, so from that point of view I can't understand why so many people leave early having made the effort to attend in the first place.